Shogun

StoneCold

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2023
Messages
618
Location
Horticulturing
It's a remake of the miniseries from 1980 based on the novel by James Clavell. I enjoyed the mini series and was inspired to read the book. The book is great, and the series stayed pretty close to the book, but of course much more detail in the book. Led me to another Clavell book Tai-Pan. Also fascinating.

This new remake is fantastic, we are bummed when each episode ends as we have to wait a week for the next. It's apparently based on a actual English pilot that was shipwrecked in Japan in the 17th century.

 
Veta should return and watch this so he can tell us what is messed up about the portrayal of Japanese culture. If anyone has the ability to reach out to him, please do.
 
I watched the first episode a week or so ago. Overall it seems really well done. Production is very high end and it looks great. Tonally, there was a few things that threw me off a bit, but overall it was very enjoyable. I'll probably pick it back up when I get back into town next week. And I'll pass on your message to Veta.
 
Watched the first 3 episodes; great production value but the story is just kind of "meh" to me.

Maybe I'm just not their target audience because I don't care for fictionalized politics vs. real-life politics.
 
Watched the first 3 episodes; great production value but the story is just kind of "meh" to me.

Maybe I'm just not their target audience because I don't care for fictionalized politics vs. real-life politics.
The Pilot (Anjin) character is based on an actual person who shipwrecked in Japan and rose to a Samurai and was an advisor to the Shogun. I find the clash between the Japanese culture and the west fascinating. Each side calls the other "Barbarians". Very little appreciation for the ways of each, but that grows over time. There is a moment when the Anjin, who has only seen a rudimentary village and thinks these are savages, is taken by ship to Osaka. When they enter the harbor and the city comes into view you can see him take it in and have a "Holy shit" moment, as he realizes these people are far more than the savages he first thought and realizes, if he's going to survive, he needs to learn and adapt.

I have only a few small windows into Japanese culture, the Clavell stories and the company I used to work for had a Japanese partner that sold our product in Japan. An example of the cultural differences was in the product box. Ours was a simple image a a few bullet points. There;s was packed with text and several images. Every square inch of the box was covered with text. They are very detail oriented, far more than we are. this is one reason I'd like to hear from Veta. How true to the Japanese spirit are they being portrayed?

@Zebulon Dak Would be interested to hear what "tonal" notes didn't sit right with you.
 
This is Veta Mur. I am back for this topic only. Why? Because I am like the greatest evangalist for this show.

I love this show. Absolutely love it. And I knew I would.

The day of the Super Bowl, which is a Monday morning here, I had a small get together. About 6 of us watched the game together, 5 ex-pats and one Japanese guy. The expats are mostly like me -- long term Japan hands. You can kind of guess our typical reaction when something Hollywood comes out about Japan. Typically its eye rolls, mocking, sarcasm. During the Super Bowl there was a commercial for Shogun...and the room went SILENT. First the cinematography caught our eyes I think. And then.. man.. the commerical sort of blew us away. No one wanted to be the first to admit, but finally someone said "Huh. That actually looks..cool". That broke the ice and we sort of gushed. But we still had to be hardened ex-pats and we still felt compelled to say "But it will probably suck".

So..a couple of things about my impression of the show and a couple of really cool highlights of stuff I want to point out.

************************************************************HEAVY SPOILERS HEAVY SPOILERS

Ive never seen a show or movie that was able to so skillfully and naturally show cultural differences, not coming across heavy handed. In the very first epsidoe, after the low level samurai insults a lord and is going to have to not only kill himself but kill off his line later they show the process. And there is his wife, holding her infant son. She is distraught, she is devastated. And even if we dont think the concrete thought the audience thinks she is sad because her son will die. But then through the conversation, we learn she is distraught because she wont be allowed to die with her husband and son. Ordered to live she is inconsolable. THEN, on top of this.. comes the next education.. the "Japanese women are submissive" trope gets its needed nuance. These men talking to the woman are making things worse, especially the husband. Then another WOMAN comes in, and exercises "soft power", shaming the men for their clumsiness and rebuking the husband whose fault it is without rebuking him. Ive lived in Japan for 28 years, Im integrated up and down..and I was pulled in the wrong direction at first and this scene was just amazing.

And again, when the daimyo is trying to rescue the Portugese pilot at the base of the cliff ..when it looks like he will die he decides to take his own life.. (before eventually being rescued). Not as subtle..but the actor who plays Blackthorn does a really good job of conveying his surprise and dismay.. the daimyo wasnt even going to try..surely he has to try if there is even a CHANCE of making it.. Met with this other idea of controlling his own death if it seemed likely he is bewildered and confused. This scene didnt quite have the same oomph as the one above but really set the stage for a very cool dialog on values, morality, life, and so on.


Im not actually an expert on Japanese history in the 1600s..but to the best of my knowledge.. this show is doing everything spot on except when concessions have to be made. I love that they take small time outs from the story to show the peasants and others view point. I love that they are taking their time in setting up the deep contrasts in how the value of life is seen in Japan vs the West. The costumes, the buildings, the transportation, its all accurate. I was irrationally excited to see Japanese ships of the time get a prominant role because Ive almost never seen them portrayed.

The dialog is interesting..in the show the Japanese they use is basically proper for the time and so its hard for me to understand most of the time. But its not completely correct, its sort of the stage equivalent to the 17th century dialect. What is interesting is the subtitles follow the philosophy which generally has a minority following in the debate among translators of how to translate. Most translators say you should choose the nearest words.. the translator for this show is going instead with "what would an English speaker say in this situation?" type translation. It really works for this show. It was a good call. Sidepoint..Japanese doesnt have true swear words so its always interesting to see how angry and fighting words get translated.

I have a billion other things to say but Im going to limit it to 2 and will visit again to talk about this show.

In the second episode, there is the best representation of a ninja attack Ive ever seen in a Western production.

They never mention the word.. but the maid who tries to kill Blackthorn is a ninja. She's not wearing black. She is a maid. She's been working as a maid for years and never done anything. And then.. BAM. Deadly. Killed 6,7 people and just barely failed. The fact the director resisted the temptation to dress her in all black (historically not accurate..probably taken from how people in plays dress when youre not meant to see them) was amazing.

And second..this show reminds me of why I fell in love with Japan as a boy. Growing up on a Reservation with a lot of resentment, with failure and despair for breakfast and lies and dust for dinner.. I had always wondered if there was another way and stumbled upon Japan. It beat Russia in 1905..fought the US and the UK to a near standstill.. I ignored a lot but became a fan. Later I matured out of that..and needless to say living here has nothing to do with that kind of childhood fanboy bullshit.. But, damn if this show doesnt remind me of some old , familitar thought processes.

Today's Japan is almost unrecognizable from the show. Its still of course a very very foreign country. But its ideas of death and life, of manners, of courtesy, of "face", or countless things went through two great schizms..one when Japan opened it borders in the late 19th century and then post WWII starting with the American occupation. On the whole the changes are probably for the best when we consider the best thing for the greatest numbers but some good was surely thrown out with the bad bath water.
 
This is Veta Mur. I am back for this topic only. Why? Because I am like the greatest evangalist for this show.

I love this show. Absolutely love it. And I knew I would.

The day of the Super Bowl, which is a Monday morning here, I had a small get together. About 6 of us watched the game together, 5 ex-pats and one Japanese guy. The expats are mostly like me -- long term Japan hands. You can kind of guess our typical reaction when something Hollywood comes out about Japan. Typically its eye rolls, mocking, sarcasm. During the Super Bowl there was a commercial for Shogun...and the room went SILENT. First the cinematography caught our eyes I think. And then.. man.. the commerical sort of blew us away. No one wanted to be the first to admit, but finally someone said "Huh. That actually looks..cool". That broke the ice and we sort of gushed. But we still had to be hardened ex-pats and we still felt compelled to say "But it will probably suck".

So..a couple of things about my impression of the show and a couple of really cool highlights of stuff I want to point out.

************************************************************HEAVY SPOILERS HEAVY SPOILERS

Ive never seen a show or movie that was able to so skillfully and naturally show cultural differences, not coming across heavy handed. In the very first epsidoe, after the low level samurai insults a lord and is going to have to not only kill himself but kill off his line later they show the process. And there is his wife, holding her infant son. She is distraught, she is devastated. And even if we dont think the concrete thought the audience thinks she is sad because her son will die. But then through the conversation, we learn she is distraught because she wont be allowed to die with her husband and son. Ordered to live she is inconsolable. THEN, on top of this.. comes the next education.. the "Japanese women are submissive" trope gets its needed nuance. These men talking to the woman are making things worse, especially the husband. Then another WOMAN comes in, and exercises "soft power", shaming the men for their clumsiness and rebuking the husband whose fault it is without rebuking him. Ive lived in Japan for 28 years, Im integrated up and down..and I was pulled in the wrong direction at first and this scene was just amazing.

And again, when the daimyo is trying to rescue the Portugese pilot at the base of the cliff ..when it looks like he will die he decides to take his own life.. (before eventually being rescued). Not as subtle..but the actor who plays Blackthorn does a really good job of conveying his surprise and dismay.. the daimyo wasnt even going to try..surely he has to try if there is even a CHANCE of making it.. Met with this other idea of controlling his own death if it seemed likely he is bewildered and confused. This scene didnt quite have the same oomph as the one above but really set the stage for a very cool dialog on values, morality, life, and so on.


Im not actually an expert on Japanese history in the 1600s..but to the best of my knowledge.. this show is doing everything spot on except when concessions have to be made. I love that they take small time outs from the story to show the peasants and others view point. I love that they are taking their time in setting up the deep contrasts in how the value of life is seen in Japan vs the West. The costumes, the buildings, the transportation, its all accurate. I was irrationally excited to see Japanese ships of the time get a prominant role because Ive almost never seen them portrayed.

The dialog is interesting..in the show the Japanese they use is basically proper for the time and so its hard for me to understand most of the time. But its not completely correct, its sort of the stage equivalent to the 17th century dialect. What is interesting is the subtitles follow the philosophy which generally has a minority following in the debate among translators of how to translate. Most translators say you should choose the nearest words.. the translator for this show is going instead with "what would an English speaker say in this situation?" type translation. It really works for this show. It was a good call. Sidepoint..Japanese doesnt have true swear words so its always interesting to see how angry and fighting words get translated.

I have a billion other things to say but Im going to limit it to 2 and will visit again to talk about this show.

In the second episode, there is the best representation of a ninja attack Ive ever seen in a Western production.

They never mention the word.. but the maid who tries to kill Blackthorn is a ninja. She's not wearing black. She is a maid. She's been working as a maid for years and never done anything. And then.. BAM. Deadly. Killed 6,7 people and just barely failed. The fact the director resisted the temptation to dress her in all black (historically not accurate..probably taken from how people in plays dress when youre not meant to see them) was amazing.

And second..this show reminds me of why I fell in love with Japan as a boy. Growing up on a Reservation with a lot of resentment, with failure and despair for breakfast and lies and dust for dinner.. I had always wondered if there was another way and stumbled upon Japan. It beat Russia in 1905..fought the US and the UK to a near standstill.. I ignored a lot but became a fan. Later I matured out of that..and needless to say living here has nothing to do with that kind of childhood fanboy bullshit.. But, damn if this show doesnt remind me of some old , familitar thought processes.

Today's Japan is almost unrecognizable from the show. Its still of course a very very foreign country. But its ideas of death and life, of manners, of courtesy, of "face", or countless things went through two great schizms..one when Japan opened it borders in the late 19th century and then post WWII starting with the American occupation. On the whole the changes are probably for the best when we consider the best thing for the greatest numbers but some good was surely thrown out with the bad bath water.
Tl;dr

Chick is a babe.

That is all.
 
Welcome Vet...I mean 7stepdrop. One of the things I love about this show is how they contrast the two cultures, while at the same time showing respect and disdain. There are moments when Anjin is appalled by their behavior and others where he has a growing respect. And the same of them. They each call the other savages, but Anjin risks his life to save Toranaga in the earthquake and the shock and surprise on his face when they dig him out says so much about the relationship of the two cultures.

There is a very nice detail in the way the Anjin is played. His posture, slightly hunched and his movements are awkward and ungainly, like an overgrown baby. I don't know of it is an actor choice or just the way this actor is in real life, but it works against the delicate and deliberate movements of most of the Japanese characters, to underscore the differences.

Sometimes Mariko's translations of the Anjin are not accurate. Sometimes it's to protect him from saying or doing something that will get him, killed or make him look stupider than he is, other times it seems she's doing it because of her own distaste for his western mannerisms, and still others are baffling and a little annoying, mainly as I just don't understand why she didn't translate a bit more literally. And yet she is drawn to him. She is one of the most fascinating characters in the story.
 
I was going to follow up today with a bit of the negative. Dont get me wrong.. Im still a huge evangalist for the show. But... BUT..BUT.. there is some "orientalism" going on. I am not faulting the writers though at this point because its almost the only way you can make a point. If you show differences in degrees and steps I think the it just gets lost for the general public so we are really getting a sort of obsessed with death Japan here and really playing up concepts like honor . But again..if you want to show nuance and subtlty..youre just not going to make any point at all.


@Birdfinger at first the casting of Mariko bugged me. The actress has spent most of her life out of Japan and especially early on it shows..she just feels off. You can tell when a Japanese person sort of loses some of their Japanese-ness. But she has grown on me and now I like the casting. Now I actually have my most serious doubts about the actor playing the Anjin. Hes not quite whom Id select..........
 
Do you not think that since she has converted to Catholicism she is a bit less Japanese than her compatriots? Certainly shows in her attraction to the Anjin. She has a foot in both worlds.

We are watching every episode twice as there is so much to pick up on and I'm a very slow reader. As I was watching the last episode there is a scene towards the end where the Anjin is talking about a plan to use his ship to escape and Mariko says "Where would we go?". He replies anywhere we can live another day. At first it struck me as a difference between the eastern acceptance of your fate and the western struggle to escape your fate. But then it struck me that Toranaga is not accepting his fate, he is fighting every day to escape a death not of his choosing. A luxury that is afforded to him because of his position. Others have to abide by the rules. Anjin is a rule breaker, but so is Toranaga. They are alike in that regard.

I would love to hear how wrong I am about all of this. :)
 
Sorry..I should clarify.. the actress herself gives the vibe..and not the "My character has divided loyalties" vibe ..the "Im unconsciously influenced by my time abroad and it effects my aesthetic and body language and demeanor".. It shows up MUCH less after maybe episode 2, OR perhaps her character gets developed enough to overshadow. Id have to rewatch to figure it out. But..what I mean is.. when the mothers get together from the football time I coach.. generally you can guess who spent the most time abroad just by seeing them stand there together.

I think youre right, thats where the show writers and presumably Clavell was going if its accurate. And thats partly also where I was talking about when I said they were flirting a bit with "orientalism".. but I do think its fine in context, as I said you cant be too subtle with pop culture. There is a bit more to it perhap that just fatalism. Its more about priority and what is real. Its not always fatalism that drives acceptance, its priority and self image, and our social constructs. Its more important to be what you are and be best version of that til the end then decide to change form and extend things removed from your life's context. The reason cherry blossoms originally becamse tied to the psyche of Japan was its life cycle.. it blooms and is incredibly beautiful but for such a short time. And as short as 3 days after blooming..it is no more. But it was its peak beauty its hole time. It didnt slowly wilt on the branch, didnt metamorphis into something else.. it was itself and its best self..and then was gone. So "Where would we go?" , but also "What would we be?"

I think there is something a bit different with Anjin and Toranaga. Anjin wants out..because its just dumb to go and die. He will break rules and expectations because he wants to survive.

Toranaga isnt doing what he is doing with the eye of personal survival. He genuinely thinks the country has a better future if her prevails. He thinks its his duty to the deceased Taiko because those in Osaka are corrupt. So he and the Anjin are refusing to just roll over and die, but I find their motivations quite different at this point still.


How tremendous was the scene where his oldest and dearest friend threatens to commit seppuku and carries it out? Holy crap.

And the tea ceremony scene in this episode. Man, Mariko can speak in the most polite of terms and poetic of phrases..and be savage. But points again to the show, first time Ive seen the tea house completely portrayed accurately.. to put in the cultural note, watch how difficult it is to get in the room. Its awkward. This is on purpose. The lowest merchant or the highest lord has to humble themselves to enter.

And the very very last scene.. finally visiting his son's resting place and thanking him for granting him time and promising not to waste it.. transforms the meaning of the death and our impression of the son. Instead of doing one last foolish thing, he redeemed his blunders by giving his father what he needed to put things right, a gift only he could give.
 
I see what you mean about the Mariko actor, though I'm not quite able to see it as I don't have the reference that you do. Will watch for it in the next episode. I think what you're referring to is the stillness of the Japanese characters. Their bodies rarely reveal much of what they are thinking, where as westerners are more comfortable wearing their hearts on their sleeves. Mariko's comment about the three hearts, at least to me , seems an important element to understand the actions of the Japanese characters. If you don't watch closely I could see it being easy to miss much of what is going on behind the words adn subtle glances adn smal movements.


I'm also no sure what you mean by "orientalism"? Is it that you think the subtlety of the Japanese sense of honor and loyalty and duty is only being presented through the lens of death? As a westerner, with a small lens into Japanese culture, I can only say that all of what you are referring to about Toranaga's motivations are clear to me. You can quickly get into a philosophical discussion of motivations with the what is good for me/we. It's only when those are in conflict that you see someones true colors. And at what point do they cause an inflection for the character? Yabushige seems an example of that, and Toranaga knows that he will succumb to the allure of power and agree to work with the Anjin. Torarnaga also seems to know the Anjin will go to Yabushige, and I wondered if he had directed him to? More likley he knew he was a goshawk as he says to Mariko adn knew it was in his nature.

The Tea Ceremony was brilliant even for soemnone that only has a cursory awareness of it and that there are rules, forms and meaning to everything that goes on. It is the only time we see Butaro behave kindly to Mariko. I was absolutely surprised he asked her to die with him. I was also surprised by her answer. Will need to watch again to mauybe understand more...or maybe not.

I remember so little from my previous exposure to the story and the scene with Hiromatsu was shocking. We only learn later that he was acting out of loyalty to Toranaga in sending the message that Torarnaga is really surrendering. Absolutely crushing and beautiful and speaks volumes about Japanese culture on so amhy levels, all beit from the 17th century. And my god I can only imagine the conversation between them as they plan this moment.

The scene at his sons resting place was also very moving. I wondered if Toranaga had anything to do with his sons actions. Did he know his Son would do this? Did he ask his son? Or was it a complete surprise to him and it is only in the aftermath that he see it has given him an opening, an opening he appreciates and will not waste? Any one of those is still a great story.

There is so much going on in this story it's a shame we can 't have Shogun and Sake watch party.🍶
 
Series has ended. At first I felt they could have done several more episodes, but realized everything is a forgone conclusion at that point. I am shocked at what I don't recall from watching the previous series and reading the book, but it was 40 years ago. It actually made watching much more suspenseful, so I suppose a bad memory is a blessing?

My only criticism of this series is the love story between Mariko and Anjin. Mariko is portrayed as a very strong, firmly Japanese woman. What in her life and what was it about the Anjin that drew her to cross the cultural and personal barriers to such intimacy? It still worked on me and the final scenes are moving, I am a sucker for love stories. So this is a small criticism.
 
Back
Top